tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18331793.post114314537126673414..comments2007-04-13T02:06:11.306-07:00Natehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12822158779160529697noreply@blogger.comBlogger2125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18331793.post-1143837257084882832006-03-31T12:34:00.000-08:002006-03-31T12:34:00.000-08:00Gnade,<BR/><BR/>The first comment you make is very valid. I realize I may have suggested that the ritual of worship is irrelevant as long as the undercurrent is correct. But the external rite of worhsip does matter(as your recent posting has explained). I'm operating in the understanding that, if the heart of worship(internal) is True, the correct rite or practice(external) will manifest. Perhaps over time, as we are gradually "being saved" and the cup and dish are cleansed on the inside. <BR/><BR/>Whether it was clear or not, my statement that "God does not desire our corporate worship, our liturgy..." was more hyperbolic than literal. God does desire our worship, our devotion, our sacrifice. After all he is worthy of it. So it's not that the externals are unrelated. And it's not that you can't make a judgement about the Church's worship based on what you observe in the externals. The detail of Levitical mandates certainly suggests that there is right and wrong way to go about worship. And Jesus, as a Jew, most certainly adhered to liturgy in his temple worship and offering.<BR/><BR/>The modern charismatic worship movement, born of a reaction to older, more Catholic forms of worship, is of course just as capable of excess, spiritual fakery, and over-concern with form as they accused their Catholic brothers of being. I don't think that Jesus' words in Matthew 5 at all suggest abandonment of form, as some "free-form" churches might. Just a certain order. Dallas Willard speaks of the Christian's growing in "the character and power" of God. He teaches that both are essential and closely wedded, but that character always precedes power(not necessarily in a temporal way). I suspect that this is related to what I've written here.<BR/><BR/>As for the second thought, concerning forgiveness. Well, we know that God has told Christians they have the authority to dispense or withhold forgiveness. This is not the same thing as harboring personal ungrace and resentment towards those who have sinned against us. <BR/><BR/>St. Augustine said "God gives where he finds empty hands." C.S. Lewis said that "a man whose hands are full of parcels can't receive a gift." God had grace while we were "yet sinners" but while we were "yet sinners" we chose not to receive the gift. Thus those who have not repented are not forgiven, in some mysterious way, and are identified with their sin. I don't believe this is the same as saying we have the license to resent those who have sinned against us, because unforgiveness is a cancer to the soul. <BR/><BR/>Ok, I'm taking a breath now! Thanks for your comment.Natehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12822158779160529697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18331793.post-1143176009890270052006-03-23T20:53:00.000-08:002006-03-23T20:53:00.000-08:00Dear Nate, <BR/><BR/>I like these posts. Nice work. <BR/><BR/>I am wondering what Jesus means when He says, "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. (Matt 5:23-24) For if what you suggest is accurate, namely that the undercurrent is all that matters (assuming that it is merciful and just) in our worship and that any sort of worship subsequently may be offered if the undercurrent is true and right, then what do we do with Jesus' directive that we are to return to the altar with our gift? Does that not seem to indicate that Jesus feels strongly about a particular form or rite? What altar? What gift? Why are they important? And how has this verse come to be quoted by some in preparation for the Lord's Supper?<BR/><BR/>And what does it mean to forgive our brothers as we've been forgiven? How has God forgiven me? Does He forgive me if I am unrepentant? If not, then am I only to forgive those who are repentant; if so, then does that suggest that God's forgiveness is directed at all, the unrepentant and defiant, and that I should be as prodigal with my forgiveness? <BR/><BR/>I guess what I am saying is that if God only forgives the repentant, and that I am to forgive like He forgives, namely, that I also only forgive the repentant, then the Church will have within itself, from brother to brother, some amount of unforgiveness one to another. Does that make sense? <BR/><BR/>It is too late. Perhaps I am drunk with fatigue. I am right now watching a report on Nightline showing that animistic voodoo "priests" in Benin who drink chicken blood straight from the bird's neck may spread the avian flu through their ritualistic practices. <BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/><BR/>Gnadecontratimeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18343608982238562089noreply@blogger.com